In some ways, this post will be a follow on from my last post about the Men's Human Rights Movement, but I'll also be commenting on a number of other things that have been rolling around in my mind and that have now come together.
I'll be mentioning (among other things) the MHRM, Feminism, equality and representation.
The MHRA's
I suppose that you could say that my opinions, on both the Mens Human Rights Movement and Feminism, are in a state of evolution. In my last post I wrote about how the Men's Human Rights Movement is generally portrayed as containing little more than angry misogynists, but that upon my investigation of the movement, I found a collective of people (male and female) who were expressing concerns about legitimate issues, working towards gender equality (in their own way) and drawing from facts and academic studies in order to determine what the issues really are and where inequality truly lay. I said that I hadn't actually seen any of the misogynists that were purported to make up the movement and that such people were rejected by the mainstream movement and pushed to the fringes.
But here is the thing about the fringes: the fringes can be a very loud place and like with traveling into a new country, it is often the people on the fringes that you meet first.
I was quite impressed with the website "A Voice For Men" and wanted to keep up with any interesting articles that may come out of there. So, I decided to link in to their Facebook page...
While the website may be a level place, it seems that the social media terrain of their Facebook page, is a little more bumpy. In some regards it can even be a bit unsavory. Now, I've not actually come across the raging misogynists that some would have you believe lurk there. But it is a place, like so many online forums, where the anonymity of the internet draws many (often otherwise normal) people to do away with the common level of civil communication that most people use in face to face interactions. I'm not suggesting that all - or even most - of the people on there are like this, but only one arsehole is required to shit on things. So, having just a few people with what I like to call "poor online demeanor", can be enough to make the whole place appear uninviting.
Then there are the "memes". The page has lots of memes, most of which are anti-feminist.
There are two problems with this: Firstly, the memes themselves appear aggressive and while they may seem to be punchy ways to get a point across, they actually come across as hostile. They aren't all bad, but I would have hoped that the page managers had given more thought to the atmosphere and personality that comes across from the page, particularly as it is being done in the name of A Voice For Men, which is a site that generally does not come across in that way. The other problem is that presenting an antifeminist front through these memes, is actually rather sweeping.
While MHRA's generally disagree with feminist theory, feminists themselves span a wide spectrum and they do not all present themselves in the ways that those memes depict them. There are even those feminists who the MHRM would do well to ally with, such as Christina Hoff Sommers, who is very interested in a form of feminism that is involved with mens issues and dealing with problems based on the facts, rather than myths and ideology.
That leads me onto my next point...
I'll be mentioning (among other things) the MHRM, Feminism, equality and representation.
The MHRA's
I suppose that you could say that my opinions, on both the Mens Human Rights Movement and Feminism, are in a state of evolution. In my last post I wrote about how the Men's Human Rights Movement is generally portrayed as containing little more than angry misogynists, but that upon my investigation of the movement, I found a collective of people (male and female) who were expressing concerns about legitimate issues, working towards gender equality (in their own way) and drawing from facts and academic studies in order to determine what the issues really are and where inequality truly lay. I said that I hadn't actually seen any of the misogynists that were purported to make up the movement and that such people were rejected by the mainstream movement and pushed to the fringes.
But here is the thing about the fringes: the fringes can be a very loud place and like with traveling into a new country, it is often the people on the fringes that you meet first.
I was quite impressed with the website "A Voice For Men" and wanted to keep up with any interesting articles that may come out of there. So, I decided to link in to their Facebook page...
While the website may be a level place, it seems that the social media terrain of their Facebook page, is a little more bumpy. In some regards it can even be a bit unsavory. Now, I've not actually come across the raging misogynists that some would have you believe lurk there. But it is a place, like so many online forums, where the anonymity of the internet draws many (often otherwise normal) people to do away with the common level of civil communication that most people use in face to face interactions. I'm not suggesting that all - or even most - of the people on there are like this, but only one arsehole is required to shit on things. So, having just a few people with what I like to call "poor online demeanor", can be enough to make the whole place appear uninviting.
Then there are the "memes". The page has lots of memes, most of which are anti-feminist.
There are two problems with this: Firstly, the memes themselves appear aggressive and while they may seem to be punchy ways to get a point across, they actually come across as hostile. They aren't all bad, but I would have hoped that the page managers had given more thought to the atmosphere and personality that comes across from the page, particularly as it is being done in the name of A Voice For Men, which is a site that generally does not come across in that way. The other problem is that presenting an antifeminist front through these memes, is actually rather sweeping.
While MHRA's generally disagree with feminist theory, feminists themselves span a wide spectrum and they do not all present themselves in the ways that those memes depict them. There are even those feminists who the MHRM would do well to ally with, such as Christina Hoff Sommers, who is very interested in a form of feminism that is involved with mens issues and dealing with problems based on the facts, rather than myths and ideology.
That leads me onto my next point...
The Feminists
I knew that by making a blog about modern men, sooner or later I was going to have to say something about feminism. I have also been dreading that, somewhat, as I know that giving an opinion on feminism is a sure fire way to open oneself up to a whole heap of disdain, from one side or the other (or both).
But before I go on, I'll first say that I'm not going to talk about feminism per se. I know that there are actually a variety of different feminisms and feminist views, ranging from the earliest women's rights movements of the late 1800's, right up to post-modern third wave feminism and standpoint feminism.
However, I'm not going to directly look at any particular feminist movement. Instead, I am going to put attention on feminists themselves. Of course, feminists too, span a wide variety, from men and women who identify as feminists but don't really give it any thought beyond that, to moderate feminists, and through to the extremes of radical feminists.
In this sense, radical and moderate are much the same as we might use those terms for radical and moderate members of a religion. The moderates, while involved in their faith, are well integrated, realistic and generally just getting on with their lives. The radicals are extreme, sometimes irrational or illogical and driven by an ideological fervor that could in some cases be called outright zealotry. And just like with religious groups, the radicals are much noisier than the moderates and tend to give the rest a bad name. One could say that that is very similar to the noisy fringes of the MHRA community.
I'd say that it is really the radical feminists that aren't doing any favors for the feminist movement. They may shout the loudest, but the things that they shout are questionable at best, often wrought with outdated myths, unrealistic ideologies and in some cases, reprehensible misandry. Or alternatively, one could say that this breed of radical feminism is an unrealistic ideology, based on myths, that breeds misandry. It is also the militant front of a form of feminism that maintains itself through the breeding of a rather insidious victim culture.
This radical feminism, perhaps isn't representative of the more moderate side of feminism, but there is an overlap. Though, some argue that feminism has been broadly hijacked and that the radical side of feminism is now the larger part of it. Whether or not that is true, the lines are certainly blurred, as it seems that even the most well-meaning, moderate feminists are often taken in by the radicals' rhetoric and the myths that they continue to spread.
I knew that by making a blog about modern men, sooner or later I was going to have to say something about feminism. I have also been dreading that, somewhat, as I know that giving an opinion on feminism is a sure fire way to open oneself up to a whole heap of disdain, from one side or the other (or both).
But before I go on, I'll first say that I'm not going to talk about feminism per se. I know that there are actually a variety of different feminisms and feminist views, ranging from the earliest women's rights movements of the late 1800's, right up to post-modern third wave feminism and standpoint feminism.
However, I'm not going to directly look at any particular feminist movement. Instead, I am going to put attention on feminists themselves. Of course, feminists too, span a wide variety, from men and women who identify as feminists but don't really give it any thought beyond that, to moderate feminists, and through to the extremes of radical feminists.
In this sense, radical and moderate are much the same as we might use those terms for radical and moderate members of a religion. The moderates, while involved in their faith, are well integrated, realistic and generally just getting on with their lives. The radicals are extreme, sometimes irrational or illogical and driven by an ideological fervor that could in some cases be called outright zealotry. And just like with religious groups, the radicals are much noisier than the moderates and tend to give the rest a bad name. One could say that that is very similar to the noisy fringes of the MHRA community.
I'd say that it is really the radical feminists that aren't doing any favors for the feminist movement. They may shout the loudest, but the things that they shout are questionable at best, often wrought with outdated myths, unrealistic ideologies and in some cases, reprehensible misandry. Or alternatively, one could say that this breed of radical feminism is an unrealistic ideology, based on myths, that breeds misandry. It is also the militant front of a form of feminism that maintains itself through the breeding of a rather insidious victim culture.
This radical feminism, perhaps isn't representative of the more moderate side of feminism, but there is an overlap. Though, some argue that feminism has been broadly hijacked and that the radical side of feminism is now the larger part of it. Whether or not that is true, the lines are certainly blurred, as it seems that even the most well-meaning, moderate feminists are often taken in by the radicals' rhetoric and the myths that they continue to spread.
The Impact
This where the two above areas collide.
It seems that all men's human rights activists see, are the loudest feminists. I.e. the noisy radicals. While all the feminists apparently see, is the noisy MRA's.
More specifically in the case of the latter, a bunch of people identifying as part of the Men's Human Rights Movement, throwing around broad, sweeping, aggressive (and often derogatory) remarks and memes about feminism.
Those responsible for places like the A Voice For Men page on Facebook, need to realize how their online presence impacts their movement and, in turn, men generally.
It could be easy to criticize the Men's Human Rights Movement, for not actually doing anything. For not actively trying to better the lives of men on a large scale, in the real world. For putting more effort into writing online articles, creating memes and arguing on forums, than to actually trying to physically solve the problems that they recognize exist. However, I am not going to make that criticism and for two very good reasons: Firstly, the movement itself, in its current form, is too young to actually be in the position to have affected those kinds of changes. Secondly, today's world is a very different one from that of 30 or 40 years ago, where activism necessarily meant physical involvement, like marches, fliers, sit-ins, protests and petitions with real signatures. This is now an internet world, where raising awareness takes place using the tools of social media, like Facebook, blogging and Youtube. Any and all movements, both new and old, are still learning how to make themselves relevant in an online society.
Feminism has had a long time to gain a positive image for itself and today it is in a position where the weight of the feminist movement can exert pressure on official bodies and bring about change. But the march of feminism hasn't just been about exacting physical changes, it has also been about changing consciousness and whether or not the men's movement knows it, it has its own part to play in the ongoing process of shifting consciousness. It is part of the same consciousness shift that was put into motion by the early women's rights movement, continued with feminism and now the quest for gender equality needs the Men's Human Rights Movement to continue that process. Right now it does not have the clout to do that alone and needs to recognize its position in the ongoing chain of shifting consciousness that is striving towards a future of equality.
The Men's Human Rights Movement, while accepting that they do not agree with feminist theory, need to recognize that equality is at least a mutual goal and in doing that, extend a hand to those moderate feminists that can be reached, saying "let's help each other". If feminists become willing to work with the Men's Human Rights Movement, it would also raise the credibility of modern feminism and give it the chance to recover itself from radicalism and any other elements that have hijacked it. Extending that hand would give feminists the chance to walk the walk and not just talk the talk. So often feminists of various camps have said that they are interested in men's issues as a part of equality, but they don't seem to actually be doing anything in that area. This could give them the chance to actually get involved, as many of them say they wish to.
However, the Men's Human Rights Activists need to realize that while in this burgeoning stage of the movement's development, image is everything. Care and diplomacy need to be constant tools, to help make sure that the movement is seen positively and its members act with those positive intentions. Otherwise, no one will be willing to take that outstretched hand. That doesn't just go for feminists who might be willing to be allies to men's rights, but to everyone else, as well. A positive image is essential in presenting oneself to the public, to official bodies, to the media and anyone else.
If you want to promote change, you need to also promote yourself.
As for feminists, it's time to engage the issues that you purport to be important to you, in a frank and honest way.
I've referred to some feminists myths, in this blog post. Those are some good examples of how you can bring the honesty back to your movement. Recognize the fact from the fiction and be willing to base yourself in the real world and work towards solving problems as they really are, because the more you chase after these phantoms, the further you travel from actually achieving anything tangible.
If you want real world equality, then you need to base yourself in the real world.
Further to that, the quest for equality has to include women and men. There needs to be recognition that men's issues are also important and then actively working on them, too!
There is a lot of talk in feminism about "allies" - allies for women, primarily, but also allies for queer folk, LGBT folk, trans folk and so on. I could say that you also need to include in that list "allies for men", but all you really need is the same thing that everyone needs: allies for equality - and to recognize that equality also includes men and men's issues.
This where the two above areas collide.
It seems that all men's human rights activists see, are the loudest feminists. I.e. the noisy radicals. While all the feminists apparently see, is the noisy MRA's.
More specifically in the case of the latter, a bunch of people identifying as part of the Men's Human Rights Movement, throwing around broad, sweeping, aggressive (and often derogatory) remarks and memes about feminism.
Those responsible for places like the A Voice For Men page on Facebook, need to realize how their online presence impacts their movement and, in turn, men generally.
It could be easy to criticize the Men's Human Rights Movement, for not actually doing anything. For not actively trying to better the lives of men on a large scale, in the real world. For putting more effort into writing online articles, creating memes and arguing on forums, than to actually trying to physically solve the problems that they recognize exist. However, I am not going to make that criticism and for two very good reasons: Firstly, the movement itself, in its current form, is too young to actually be in the position to have affected those kinds of changes. Secondly, today's world is a very different one from that of 30 or 40 years ago, where activism necessarily meant physical involvement, like marches, fliers, sit-ins, protests and petitions with real signatures. This is now an internet world, where raising awareness takes place using the tools of social media, like Facebook, blogging and Youtube. Any and all movements, both new and old, are still learning how to make themselves relevant in an online society.
Feminism has had a long time to gain a positive image for itself and today it is in a position where the weight of the feminist movement can exert pressure on official bodies and bring about change. But the march of feminism hasn't just been about exacting physical changes, it has also been about changing consciousness and whether or not the men's movement knows it, it has its own part to play in the ongoing process of shifting consciousness. It is part of the same consciousness shift that was put into motion by the early women's rights movement, continued with feminism and now the quest for gender equality needs the Men's Human Rights Movement to continue that process. Right now it does not have the clout to do that alone and needs to recognize its position in the ongoing chain of shifting consciousness that is striving towards a future of equality.
The Men's Human Rights Movement, while accepting that they do not agree with feminist theory, need to recognize that equality is at least a mutual goal and in doing that, extend a hand to those moderate feminists that can be reached, saying "let's help each other". If feminists become willing to work with the Men's Human Rights Movement, it would also raise the credibility of modern feminism and give it the chance to recover itself from radicalism and any other elements that have hijacked it. Extending that hand would give feminists the chance to walk the walk and not just talk the talk. So often feminists of various camps have said that they are interested in men's issues as a part of equality, but they don't seem to actually be doing anything in that area. This could give them the chance to actually get involved, as many of them say they wish to.
However, the Men's Human Rights Activists need to realize that while in this burgeoning stage of the movement's development, image is everything. Care and diplomacy need to be constant tools, to help make sure that the movement is seen positively and its members act with those positive intentions. Otherwise, no one will be willing to take that outstretched hand. That doesn't just go for feminists who might be willing to be allies to men's rights, but to everyone else, as well. A positive image is essential in presenting oneself to the public, to official bodies, to the media and anyone else.
If you want to promote change, you need to also promote yourself.
As for feminists, it's time to engage the issues that you purport to be important to you, in a frank and honest way.
I've referred to some feminists myths, in this blog post. Those are some good examples of how you can bring the honesty back to your movement. Recognize the fact from the fiction and be willing to base yourself in the real world and work towards solving problems as they really are, because the more you chase after these phantoms, the further you travel from actually achieving anything tangible.
If you want real world equality, then you need to base yourself in the real world.
Further to that, the quest for equality has to include women and men. There needs to be recognition that men's issues are also important and then actively working on them, too!
There is a lot of talk in feminism about "allies" - allies for women, primarily, but also allies for queer folk, LGBT folk, trans folk and so on. I could say that you also need to include in that list "allies for men", but all you really need is the same thing that everyone needs: allies for equality - and to recognize that equality also includes men and men's issues.
It's impossible to be a true agent for equality, while ignoring the inequalities of one group. Even if you happen to believe that we live in a patriarchy and that men are disproportionately privileged compared to women, the battle for equality must still take place in all areas where inequality exists. That is the only way that equality can be achieved.
You may need to accept that not all your allies in these battles will agree with your particular ideology or politics, but they don't need to. They only need to agree that the inequality needs to end and be willing to help end it.
If you can't accept that, then you aren't looking for allies, you are looking for converts.
You may need to accept that not all your allies in these battles will agree with your particular ideology or politics, but they don't need to. They only need to agree that the inequality needs to end and be willing to help end it.
If you can't accept that, then you aren't looking for allies, you are looking for converts.